Blog.jpg

Checking out a flex tree

Posted by admin on August 1, 2012

2012_Aug_1_1_flexible_bar_tree.jpg

A while back we were contacted by some (relatively) local people who were concerned that one of their horses had developed white hair under the saddle which showed up late last fall.  The story was that they have Missouri Fox Trotters and had ordered special gaited horse saddles with flex trees from the US for them.  The horses seemed to be fine early last summer when they were doing shorter rides, but toward the end of the season they started doing some all day trail rides and even two or three day rides.  One horse in particular started to act up - going along fine and then "scooting out" from under them with no warning.  They originally put it down to temperament, but when the hair coat changed and they noticed the white hairs in the middle of his back, they started to wonder.  Come spring, they went to the (relatively) local tack store to see if they could find something that fitted him better, and the store referred them to us.

The owners drove almost two hours each direction (I told you it was "relatively" local!) bringing a couple of their horses and their saddles for us to check out.  It was April by this time and the horses had had the winter off, so it was too late to check for soreness.  But small patches of roaning were visible on both sides of the horse under the center of the saddle - an unusual place for white hairs.  When we put the saddle up and checked what was above the white hairs we felt an obvious lump which, on closer examination, turned out to be the stirrup leather sitting almost half way back on the length of the bar.  Hmmm...  The saddle also was not at all stable on the horse (a good sign that the shapes don't fit) and preferred to ride forward so the bars were over the shoulder blades (showing that the tree is too wide for the horse).  After discussing the problem and likely causes, the owner decided to go with replacing the tree and using the old leather (if the "relatively" local saddle maker thought it was worth it) rather than trying to find something else that might work.  So we got the chance to examine the tree up close and personal as we made a duplicate of it. 

2012_Aug_1_2_flexible_bar_tree.jpg

The idea behind a flexible bar tree is that there should never be any high pressure points because the bar will flex away from the horse as he moves, and therefore this should be "kinder" to a horse than a solid tree which might Poke him somewhere.  At least that is the theory...  The bars are a rubber type material while the fork and cantle are fibreglass covered pine.

2012_Aug_1_3_flexible_bar_tree.jpg

And the bars do flex.  You can make the horn and cantle touch if you want!  (Granted, it couldn't do this when it was all made up as a saddle.)  But we have always wondered "If it flexes like this, what is stopping it from flexing under the rider's weight, putting excess pressure in the middle of the horse?"  Now we had a chance to find out.

2012_Aug_1_4_not_bending_bar.jpg 2012_Aug_1_5_trying_to_bend_flexible_bar.jpg

But how flexible is it where it counts - at the bar tips and edges where they might dig in?  Well, compare these two pictures.  The one on the left shows the bar tip without pressure.  In the one on the right, Rod is pushing on the back bar tip with a lot of pressure as you can tell by the blanching of his fingers.  See the amount of flex? 

2012_Aug_1_6_not_bending_bar.jpg 2012_Aug_1_7_trying_to_bend_flexible_bar.jpg

Not really?  Well, try this one.  Here he's pushing with his thumb to make it flex.  See the difference?

2012_Aug_1_8_not_bending_bar.jpg 2012_Aug_1_9_trying_to_bend_flexible_bar.jpg

No?  Well, maybe we're not putting enough pressure on.  So here we tried with a scale.  The one on the left reads 0.00 pounds.  On the right it reads 22.58 pounds.  Not a significant amount of deflection for that amount of pressure, is there?  In playing with this tree, it is really hard to get the tips or edges to move much at all.  So we can't see them flexing out of the way as the horse moves.  The rubber is just too stiff. 

2012_Aug_1_10_fork_and_cantle_cuts.jpg

So if the "flex" idea doesn't work, how well is the tree designed otherwise?  Well, the bars have both fork and cantle "cuts" on them to help position the pieces together well.

2012_Aug_1_11_fork_lip.jpg 2012_Aug_1_12_cantle_lip.jpg

Both fork and cantle have a ridge built in on the inside edge of the gullet to help position them properly relative to the bars and they do line up easily to make assembly more accurate than it could be.  As well, they are attached with screws - not staples - which vary from 1 1/2" to 3" in length, which are the longest screws we have ever seen in trees.  So a lot of design has gone into how to put the pieces together.

2012_Aug_1_13.jpg

But when things are built to flex, it is hard to get or keep a tree square, even with those design factors built in.  To be fair, this was a used tree so maybe it started out square.

2012_Aug_1_14_no_edge_relief.jpg

How about the bar design?  Well, here's the front bar tip.  It is very close to dead flat with a narrow edge.  Not much relief or curve built into that to allow for shoulder movement.  Maybe they count on the flexible material rather than bar shape to fit the horse but as we saw, the bars aren't that flexible...

2012_Aug_1_15_not_a_lot_of_surface_area.jpg

In checking through our factors that affect tree fit, surface area plays a big part.  How do these bars measure up?  The seat length measures at 17" in the tree with almost 10" of thigh room - a tree with a lot of room for the rider.  But the bars are barely 22" long.  (We have 22" as our minimum length unless it is a kid's tree.)  They measure 5 3/4" across at the widest part of the front bar pad and less than 5" across at the widest part of the back bar pad. (Ours are over 6" wide, even on our "regular" bars, and are wider on our Wade bars.)  So not a lot of surface area to play with. 

Also, the gullet width (which is an inconsistent measurement anyway) was very wide at 7 1/2" wide and the hand hole measured 5 3/8" with the fiberglass on, so probably 5 1/2" in the wood.  (We made the duplicate 4 1/4" wide to fit the horse properly.)  So the bars were set very far apart. 

2012_Aug_1_16_minimal_stirrup_groove_depth.jpg

And what about the problem area - the stirrup groove and stirrup leather?  Well, there is a slight indentation on the bottom of the bar for the stirrup leather.  It measures about 1/8" deep at the front but less than 1/16" deep at the back, which is where the stirrup leather will generally end up.

2012_Aug_1_17_large_extra_large_stirrup_groove.jpg

The stirrup groove itself is also extremely long.  The top edge is 5 1/4" long (ours are 3 1/4") and the back edge of the stirrup groove ends 6" behind the fork.  In talking with other hand made tree makers, everyone seems to put that back edge of the stirrup groove about 5" behind the fork.  So the stirrup leathers would be sitting an inch farther back than in our trees.

2012_Aug_1_18_lump_from_narrow_stirrup_leather.jpg

And all this space was used by a stirrup leather that was about 1 1/2" wide, and well over 1/8" thick.  So the lump we felt through the skirts was this narrow stirrup leather sticking out below the level of the rest of the bar and sitting far enough back under the rider that their weight would press it down into the horse more than if it were farther forward.

2012_Aug_1_19_flex_tree_on_pressure_set_up.jpg

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating - and to see how a tree fits you have to try it on the horse.  So when we were doing some initial tests with our new pressure sensor mat, we decided to try this one too. 

2012_Aug_1_20_flex_tree_bridging.jpg

Our horse is more flat backed than this horse was so it would have been worse on their horse, but even on ours, the tree bridged.  It is hard to see in the picture but the arrow points to sky seen between the bar and the pad.

2012_Aug_1_21_flex_tree_under_weight.jpg

But when our niece sat on the tree, the answer to our question about what stops the bars from flexing under the rider's weight became clear - nothing!  The poor relief built into the bar tips was inconsequential because the bar tips had no pressure on them at all.  All the pressure was concentrated under the rider.

And this was without a narrow stirrup leather protruding from a too shallow stirrup groove which would have concentrated the pressure beneath it even more - causing a high pressure point, pain for the horse and eventually leading to the white hairs that triggered the owners to examine things further.

So...  we made a solid duplicate tree to fit the shape of the horse, the saddle maker put it all back together better than it was in the first place (I won't go into saddle construction but it was "interesting") and the last we heard the horse was being used regularly and doing well.  The owners were also talking about getting a saddle built to replace the other flex tree saddle they have...

Comments:

Posted by Harold Rogers on
My question would be what pressure pattern would look like with a metal strainer plate installed. Having it attached to the bars and running up the cantle and attached with small screws. That would I think change the pressure pattern by stiffing up the bars from the cantle to the sturip grove. Would the bars flex even more at the grove? Or would the strainer plate stiffen the bars from bhind the swell to where the strainer attaches to the cantle? Which could again cause more pressure on the back of the horse because of the shallow sturrip grove? The sturrip leather could still be the low point, which would put more pressure in that area.Why is there more pressure on the right side?
Posted by RodandDenise on
Harold,
It is hard to say how different types of strainers would affect the bars. They would all need to be tested. There is no question that adding a groundseat to the tree would act to help "stiffen" the whole thing to a certain extent, but we don't think it would eliminate the high central pressure. And it certainly wouldn't make the ends more flexible, so the whole point of this type of flex bar doesn't work anyway.
This saddle had a firm plastic groundseat maybe up to 1/8" thick that was attached at the cantle and right behind the fork. (There are grooves in the top of the bars for the stirrup leather to go under it without restriction.) This plastic was also fairly bendable. Then some foam and the top cover were all that were on top the plastic. So nothing that would have really inhibited the central pressure substantially - as shown by the effects on the horse.
There is more pressure on the right because the rider is sitting more to the right in this picture. (The tiny circle in the center that shows where the total center of pressure is on the mat is slightly to the right of center.) These pads are so sensitive that any movement of the rider shows up in the scan. We were just starting to use it when we did this one and still need to learn more about how to set things up to get reliable, consistent information. But recognizing the pattern of pressure is easy enough.
Posted by Galadriel on
I've been passing this article around, because this is *exactly* what I find when I evaluate a horse who's been wearing a flex-tree saddle. The effects on the horse are just like the effects of a broken tree; a really bad pressure point where the tree flexes the most, that clearly digs into the horse's back with any motion of the horse or the rider.

I'll add that I eval a horse *before* looking at the rider's saddle, and even ask them not to tell me about it, so I can get a clear, unprejudiced feel of the horse's back muscles. So it's not that I'm looking for that feeling when I know they're using a flex tree; it's that I feel the issues with the muscles, and they're consistent with the issues a horse has when he is ridden in a saddle with a cracked tree.

FWIW, there's often a hot swollen spot or dug-in cold divot right under the break, depending on how long the horse has been ridden in the saddle. The real giveaway, though, is that the muscles right next to the spine on the affected side(s) are raised, tight, and solidly unmoving for an inch or several laterally from the spine; it can look a little like the back of an obese horse, with the soft tissue raised above the spine, but on a horse who isn't obese or on just one side. And the tissue certainly doesn't feel soft and giving like an obese horse's back fat. Generally the lumbar muscles are all corked up too, but that's fairly typical of any real pain-causing issue in a saddle.
Posted by Barb on
Thank you so much for this article. I am having a problem with my flex tree saddle and this article was very helpful. Thanks so much for publishing your findings in detail and providing pictures.
Posted by kris johnson on
loved the article on the flex tree, we have had a few come in, one for replacement due to soring, and 2 that the bars had broke. would love to post you're article onto my facebook page informing customers that it isn't just my opinion that these are junk, but is also considered junk by another professional. Thank You for the information. Kris Johnson, Johnson's Saddlery Repair, Vassar Michigan
Posted by Julie Warne on
Thank you for this article. I bought my Draft X a Circle Y Omaha Flex2 Wide tree and it pinches her. Its obvious when we go downhills and when I post to a trot. Im in the process of looking at a Cashel with Axium tree. I hope that is a better solution! I was very disappointed in the flex tree concept as it doesnt appear to flex at all.
Leave a Reply



(Your email will not be publicly displayed.)


Captcha Code

Click the image to see another captcha.


© 2014 Rod Nikkel Saddle Trees. All Rights Reserved.

Hosted by Tooq Inc.